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 Post subject: Blazing Saddles
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:38 am
Posts: 76
Location: Worcester, UK
Still feeling my way around this wonderful site, and my equally wonderful, though frustrating 330/12.
I realise this has probably been covered ad nauseum over the years, but I'm new (well, to this site...) and wondered if opinion had changed recently.
I have read that individual (i.e. one string-a-saddle) 12 string saddles have no advantage over the two-strings-a-saddle for intonation, and in fact can dull the tone.
But visiting Roger McGuinn's site in the article discussing perfect intonation—where he advocates removing the saddle springs and adjusting right back on the E and A string—the picture shows that he uses the individual type saddle i.e one string, one saddle; implying this is the only way perfect pitch can be achieved.
If Roger is indeed the Ric 12 guru, then doesn't this mean that individual saddles are the best?
I'm not contradicting anyone here: just wondering what the general opinion is out there in Ricland.
Love and peace.


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 Post subject: Re: Blazing Saddles
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:37 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:51 am
Posts: 3362
Location: Atlanta, GA
Some Rickenbacker twelve string guitars intonate properly with a six saddle bridge, and some seem not to. I guess I would say that if yours doesn't, then a twelve saddle bridge is certainly an option. If you don't have a problem intonating the string pairs, then why bother changing?


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 Post subject: Re: Blazing Saddles
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:25 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:00 pm
Posts: 1957
Location: San Bernardino, CA
Ric-o-Chet

John Hall has been enormously patient with us all and highly consistent with his views and observations with the Ric 6 saddle verses the Ric 12 saddle issue for many years running now.

I would strongly suggest you use the "search" feature on this very Forum, read the appropriate threads and John's various postings that discuss this at length.

Also, if you do a diligent Google search you will find other websites as well where Mr. Hall has discussed this.

Very needless to say, JH knows his product like the back of his hand.



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 Post subject: Re: Blazing Saddles
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:00 pm
Posts: 997
Location: The Independent Republic Of Florida
Quote:
If you don't have a problem intonating the string pairs, then why bother changing?


Howdy,

I totally agree here.
Just wanted to add that with the six saddle bridge, if the intonation is ever so slightly "off", this is what gives the Ric 12 string that Jangle sound that we all know and love, not to mention an ever so slight chorus effect.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Blazing Saddles
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:38 am
Posts: 76
Location: Worcester, UK
Thanks guys. I guess I'm just so chuffed with owning a Ric at long last, that I just want to talk about it.

As for Steve's observation above, I totally agree.
I've used a Guild acoustic 12 string for years and have always tuned the top pairs (B and E) slightly out with each other to give that chorus sound. It works beautifully, especially when playing any solo runs.

Thanks again.


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 Post subject: Re: Blazing Saddles
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:38 am
Posts: 76
Location: Worcester, UK
Now for changing the strings...


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 Post subject: Re: Blazing Saddles
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:07 am
Posts: 3854
It's no big mystery why a six-saddle bridge should be able to intonate well. It has to do with string diameter and string stretch, more particularly core diameter.

First, the easy one: the high E and B strings, being the same diameter, need the same setback. Notice that your bridge saddles are even curved to match the crown radius of the fingerboard.

Second, use a wound 3rd. You don't have to go heavy: D'addario makes everything needed to complement a string set regardless of tension, feel, or personal preference: 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, then every even number on up.

Third, generally, it is the diameter and tension of the core on wound strings that determines the setback needed to intonate the saddle, and a much lesser extent the windings. This is easy to show on a 6 string guitar with the g string: use a wound, and you'll set the bridge saddle almost as far forward as the high e string, use a plain g, and you'll set it back almost as far as the low A string.

So, for that reason, with a nice bit of coincidence, the G, D and A strings, having a wound for the unison and a plain for the octave, intonate almost perfectly with a single saddle because the core of each of these strings is close enough to the diameter of the corresponding plain string.

The only critter is the low E string, since a wound string is usually used for both the unison and the octave. Even then, there are things you can do, like raising the octave string so there is more stretch when fretting it, so it comes out the same as the low E string unison.

And, as posted above, the slight chorus effect from being slightly out of tune is what makes a 12-string to begin with, whether by differences in fretting and finger pressure, or by the actual intonation itself.

Pipe organ builders have been doing this for centuries. The pipe organ equivalent of a 12-string guitar is called a celeste (not to be confused with the orchestra instrument of the same name that is most famously used for its tinkling effect in the Nutcracker Suite), unda maris or piffaro. A second set of basically identical pipes is tuned just ever so slightly sharp or flat to get the lush, swirling effect without being considered out of tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Blazing Saddles
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:48 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:38 am
Posts: 76
Location: Worcester, UK
Wow, that's some educated and concise reply. You guys are truly amazing.

Quote:
... as posted above, the slight chorus effect from being slightly out of tune is what makes a 12-string to begin with, whether by differences in fretting and finger pressure, or by the actual intonation itself.
Pipe organ builders have been doing this for centuries...



As for that, well, I thought out-of-tuning was my own little discovery.
Just out of interest, my other ahem, discovery/invention/ok, habit...
Does anyone else out there play bottom A chord using the index finger on 2nd fret A, the second finger on 2nd fret E and third finger on 2nd fret C#
i.e instead of fingering 1,2,3 use 2,1,3.


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 Post subject: Re: Blazing Saddles
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:05 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:00 pm
Posts: 997
Location: The Independent Republic Of Florida
Quote:
Now for changing the strings...


Howdy,

When replacing strings, I replace first the slotted strings followed by the others (See Below For the Order). Before that, whether I am using the R tailpiece or the Trapeze tailpiece, I place all of the strings in the slots and place a small piece of masking tape on the bottom side of the tailpiece to hold them in place and I place a cotton diaper (Unused of course) underneath to keep the tailpiece from scratching the body. The actual order that I restring is:
11-2-9-4-7-6-12-1-10-3-8-5
The reason I do it this way is to balance the R or the Trapeze tailpiece while restringing. This works for me, and it takes about 15-20 minutes with the older style slotting. As I do not own a Rickenbacker with the newer through the headstock slotting, I cannot speak on those. I would imagine that it would be a bit easier.

Steve
"A Splendid Time Is Guaranteed For All"

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 Post subject: Re: Blazing Saddles
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:38 am
Posts: 76
Location: Worcester, UK
Thanks for that Steve.
Time to put on the gloves and goggles, pull down the visor and have a go.
I'll let you know.
Love and peace
Dave


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