Board index » Rick restoration from part to finish




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 Post subject: Re: 360 Casualty
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:52 am 
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Location: Scotland
Schoolside is right - don't use epoxy unless it's for a repair you *never* want to come apart again - which (possibly surprisingly) does not include neck joints. I use it for repairing cracked or shattered wood where the original was one piece, and you should never want it to move ever again... eg a broken headstock.

Doing epoxy really right with wood also requires heat, so the glue thins and soaks into the wood - if you don't do this it stays rubbery and on the surface, doesn't set as hard and isn't anywhere near as strong. You couldn't easily do this with a long tenon neck joint even if it was the right glue. (You must *only* use the high-strength, slow-setting type too, quick-set epoxy is not a structural glue.)

'Titebond' or another standard woodworker's glue - but not Resin W or other white PVA glue, which will 'creep' under load - is what you need, and what RIC used originally.

When you're getting the neck out, use as little steam and as much force as you can without risking breaking the wood - the more steam you put in, the more you risk opening up the center seam on the body or lifting the back off.

For what it's worth, we're now in agreement about this guitar, even though we got there from completely opposite directions! It certainly isn't ever going to be a collector's piece, but it can definitely be restored correctly to an original, unmodifed state (which is not the same as saying all-original, but properly repaired is not the same as hacked either), and it does need to be done right.


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 Post subject: Re: 360 Casualty
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:52 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:10 am
Posts: 618
Location: CT
Thank you BA,

Here is a recent thread of interest where Mr Hall talks about his steamer.

http://www.rickenbacker.com/forum_view_ ... er%20block

quote:
I don't think it's any more difficult to work with than any other insert neck guitar. Besides, if you remove the pickup, you have access to the channels for pneumatic pressure relief of the glue; these are perfect for directing steam to the right place without having to drill through an inlay as you do on some other brand guitars.

I have an old paint pot that sits on a hotplate, with a tube coming out of the top which works perfectly to steam a joint in a few minutes. A pressure cooker would also work well for this I would think- just don't remove the over-pressure relief valve!


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 Post subject: Re: 360 Casualty
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:35 pm 
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I agree with BA. Never use epoxy unless it's a "never" situation. I had one, once: my "beater" acoustic is a bolt-on neck, Taylor-style, made a generation before Taylor made it popular as a "new" way to make quality acoustic instruments. Nothing new in the world except the history you don't know, but I digress. A stress crack developed in my neck heel from the improper placement of a strap button that was done by a music store repairman way too many years ago, and at the time I didn't want to spend any $$ on it, as it is only a beater, although it sounds great and plays great. I withdrew the offending strap button, took the smallest of syringes and needles, and injected the crack with epoxy, as I was not about to take the neck off and risk fouling it up even worse. I then reinstalled the strap button in what is ironically called the "Taylor position," and everything now sounds great, is stable, the guitar hangs properly on its strap, etc.

BUT - on the same guitar, the bridge was starting to let go. That I had done properly by a qualified luthier with traditional methods, and while he was in there, he replaced a first-generation saddle transducer with a more updated model, as by that point I was performing live with that guitar and doing some recording, and needed a good line out, which with the gigs was again cost-effective.

The point being is a man has got to know his limitations. Right now, your limitations are financial. We all understand that! But be careful so that the urge to "fix something" without proper tools, technique, work space, time or experience actually makes it worse. If you're confident in your abilities, great. Use a good steamer; be slow and careful. After you get it apart and carefully clean everything up and know it will reset properly, use only a natural glue like Titebond brand Liquid Hyde Glue, like BA said, so that if it ever needs to be redone it is only a matter of re-steaming the joint. It is one of the few glues that is actually recommended for musical instruments. It comes in a small bottle readily obtainable and relatively inexpensive at most home improvement stores, and you don't have to go through all the hoopla of traditional hyde glue of getting a gluepot, melting hard glue sticks, balancing the fine line between proper consistency and scorching the glue, etc. If you can't find it, you can always order a bottle from Stew-Mac luthier supply.


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 Post subject: Re: 360 Casualty
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:20 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:10 am
Posts: 618
Location: CT
Quote:
The point being is a man has got to know his limitations.


Hi iiipopes, Thanks for your words of encouragement to FFR. I'd like to disagree with your "point", I believe "It's the man that doesn't know his limitations that ultimately succeeds".

Since we are talking Taylor, Bob Taylor has experienced dozens of challenges in his first 20 years at Taylor Guitars.
His NT neck is one of the best designs ever for creating stable, accurate and easily adjustable neck angle to an accuracy of .001 in. I have several Taylor guitars, the most recent an 814ce that is really stellar.



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 Post subject: Re: 360 Casualty
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:24 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:06 pm
Posts: 32
Location: London, UK
Dudes, I'm humbled by your help. Thank you.

I have a proper steamer, you'll be glad to hear - borrowed from a fellow work collegue who was horrified I was about to use an old capuucino machine!! I will attempt to steam the neck either tonight or the next day and will post pics when done. Not sure if you checked out the links I posted for pics of a Les Paul being repaired but his method for resetting the correct neck angle was a good one (putting a straight rule along the fret board and the measuring the distance from the body to the straight rule at a given point on a guitar that is perfectly set-up. Would anyone be able to supply me such a measurement?

Getting excited now!! (Don't worry, I wont rush it...!)


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 Post subject: Re: 360 Casualty
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:53 pm 
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Location: Scotland
It's very simple with a Rick - the neck is dead straight on the body, no angle. That should take care of itself if the neck tenon and socket are clean, since it would have been made that way originally - there's far less scope for variation than there is on a Les Paul with its much shorter tenon and arched top.

Looking again at your one, I wonder whether the neck needs to be 'packed' slightly at the back? There seems to be too much of a gap between the back of the neck and the back of the body, possibly due to previous work done on it, and this *may* be what has allowed the glue to separate and the neck to pull up. Wood glues are only strong where there is direct wood-to-wood contact, the actual glue material itself is quite weak, especially in tension. So if the neck is not a very good front-to-back fit in the socket, I would be inclined to laminate a thin veneer onto it to make it so. (And the same with any side-to-side gaps, too.)


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 Post subject: Re: 360 Casualty
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:42 pm 
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Location: London, UK
Thanks Blue Angel. To help with what you said. The more I look at it, the more like it looks like someone held it by the neck and whacked it on the ground flat with the back of the body hitting the ground thereby forcing the neck and the top of the body upwards and thereby causing a gap on the underside which I reckon someone has just as you say, stuffed some glue in the gap between the bottom of the body and the neck to stop the neck moving without realising how that angle would affect the action on the guitar. Like I said, it's playable but the action has always been a bit awkward as you get higher up the fretboard.


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 Post subject: Re: 360 Casualty
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:10 am
Posts: 618
Location: CT
Quote:
it looks like someone held it by the neck and whacked it on the ground flat with the back of the body hitting the ground thereby forcing the neck and the top of the body upwards and thereby causing a gap on the underside which I reckon someone has just as you say, stuffed some glue in the gap between the bottom of the body


At this point, that all sounds like good news. Their may not be much glue to remove and the damage might be restricted to the top of the guitar. BA is a genius at this stuff and can talk you through it if you run into difficulties.

I'm glad that you were able to borrow a real steamer, but what's wrong with a cappuccino machine? Regarding neck angle, if you run a straight edge over the fingerboard and onto the bridge set at mid height, that should help you get it dialed in. Be careful so you don't get hurt.


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 Post subject: Re: 360 Casualty
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:57 pm 
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Location: Scotland
I'm no genius! Just a long-served 'jack of all trades' musical instrument shop repairer. (If I have a speciality that I would consider myself nearer expert level at, it's actually tube amps rather than guitars.) I've just seen so much of this sort of amateur repair bodge over the years that there really isn't too much that surprises me any more - or at least I always think so until some new horror comes along! That's why I was so determined to be cautious about any recommendation to 'have a go', since I've seen so many of the results.

Luckily it sounds like FoolForRick is sensible and at least familiar with tools and woodworking procedures. Some of the guitar "repairs" I've come across were clearly done by people whose skill level is home DIY at best, and not at the upper end of that... some can be forgiven because they were done so long ago that the knowledge just wasn't available on how to do it properly - and even worse, there were at least a couple of "repair instruction" books from back then which contained totally wrong information and methods, that I've seen.


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 Post subject: Re: 360 Casualty
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:32 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:10 am
Posts: 618
Location: CT
Quote:
I'm no genius!


To use your words, "I completely disagree". At the very least you are an encyclopedia of instrument repair.
Thanks for being so willing to share with your pals here on the forum.


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