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 Post subject: 360/12v64 Very Hazy Finish - What to do?
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:59 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:35 am
Posts: 5
Hi guys,

I have an opportunity to pick up a mid to late 90's 360/12v64 FG that is in nearly perfect mechanical condition for an extremely good price. However, the finish is extremely cloudy/hazy. There are no visible scratches, or chips anywhere but it is basically flat - no gloss at all. It almost looks like someone attempted to polish it with acetone or something like that and it just ate up the finish. It's not rough but it looks kind of like someone applied a wax/polish and never wiped it off.

I have used most of the products suggested here on the forum (Naphtha, ScratchX, Zymol, etc.) on my other Rics with fairly good success but none of them were anything close to as damaged as this one. They just had minor swirls and needed to be shined up a bit.

I searched around the forum for a while and saw a number of posts on cloudy finishes and remedies but none of them seem to address a guitar in this poor condition. I saw mention of a heat gun or blow dryer but I don't think that this is water in the finish. It looks like more of a chemical kind of damage.

I guess I'm trying to decide whether to purchase this guitar - it is considerably discounted but if it needs a lot of work (re-fin), it is not that great of a deal. I know that it is kind of hard to comment without seeing it but I would appreciate any advice you have.

Thanks in advance,

dbf360


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 Post subject: Re: 360/12v64 Very Hazy Finish - What to do?
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:10 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:00 pm
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Location: Aloha, OR
Without seeing it, it's hard to say what the cause might be. But it might just need a power buffing to bring the shine back...


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 Post subject: Re: 360/12v64 Very Hazy Finish - What to do?
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:11 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:00 pm
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Location: SF CA


I mention this alternative because few have power buffers of a type that's suitable, sending it in to a luthier for this is a hassle, and even if you have a power buffer, it takes a deft touch to do a guitar properly. Even the guys in the factory buffing department burn through occasionally. They can fix it. You won't be able to.

Do a search of the threads for "Scratch X" or "Zymol".

Scratch-X is a hand-applied polishing medium that breaks down with heat, but produces an amazing shine on Rickenbacker conversion varnish.

Zymol is a water-based wax that can be built up in layers to render a Scratch-Xed surface glass-smooth and super-glossy.

I've written extensively on the process which would help you to get this thing shiny again. It works for me daily and it's helped lots of folks on this Forum to get their dingy-looking Ricks looking new again.

It's worth the trouble of a search and a reading of the various threads, where I explain in great detail how to do this.

Good luck!

_________________
Rickenbackers: I love to play them. I enjoy the challenge of working on them. I love the way they sound.


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 Post subject: Re: 360/12v64 Very Hazy Finish - What to do?
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:41 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:35 am
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Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies. I have done a some searches read about 20 or so threads. Most of them are focussed on removing light scratches or swirls. Although a few mentioned a cloudy or hazy area in the finish, it did not appear that any of them were dealing with a problem of this magnitude. The entire body and neck of this guitar is affected.

I do have extensive experience with automotive finishes. I have and use a few different circular high speed and Dual Action buffing machines - electric and air powered. I would not attempt to use anything but maybe my small 5" DA on a guitar - and even that would probably be too difficult to control. Unfortunately, I do not have access to the big stand buffers that the guys use for guitars.

I'm not sure that buffing would take care of the problem because I fear that something has "softened" the finish to the point that it cannot be buffed. In fact it appears that the previous owner of this guitar has attempted repeatedly to polish it to no avail.

I have actually used both ScratchX and Zymol (as well as a few other polishes and waxes). I have had very mixed results with ScratchX on Ric, Fender, and Gibson finishes. I found it very difficult to work with on my 360 JG. It seems to turn to "epoxy" within about 10 seconds and is virually impossible to remove or buff off - even when working only 2-3 square inches at a time. I found that it actually creates more swirls and splotchy areas than it removes (even using 100% cotton diapers). I had the same problem on my 660/12 too. Zymol, on the other hand, is awesome for guitar finishes. Great product - it produces great results. I used to use alot of 3M products on automobile finishes (including the Perfect-It line). I have had the same problems with them turning to "glue" and being difficult to remove.

Anyway, I do appreciate your responses. I guess I will just have to decide whether I am willing to take a chance on the guitar or not. Maybe I can talk the seller into letting me try and rub out the finish with a couple of different things (Naptha, ScratchX, Zymol) before I buy it (good luck, right...).

dbf360


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 Post subject: Re: 360/12v64 Very Hazy Finish - What to do?
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:05 am
Posts: 201
Location: Fullerton, CA
You may have to cut & buff. For situations like this, I would start with the simplest things first: ScratchX, 3M Finesse It Perfect It, etc, BY HAND. If that doesn't work, try some 1500 & 2000 grit on a small area and then try the compounds. If that works, you're home free, you can wet sand the offending area(s), going higher and higher with the grits, ( I have sandpaper with grits as high as 12000) and then fire up the buffer. I use a Mothers Polishing Ball, which is a foam nerf-ball looking thingy available at Pep Boys, Kragen, etc, on a variable speed pneumatic die grinder using high speed and applying VERY LOW PRESSURE to the surface. When machine buffing, I always thin the compound with a little water, and avoid the edges where the finish is thinner. I then finish the job off with Maguire's NXT Tech Wax. It comes in a purple bottle with a green cap, it's amazing stuff.

Good Luck


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 Post subject: Re: 360/12v64 Very Hazy Finish - What to do?
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:53 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:00 pm
Posts: 558
Location: Arkansas
Quote:
I then finish the job off with Maguire's NXT Tech Wax. It comes in a purple bottle with a green cap, it's amazing stuff.


I'll 2nd that..very easy to use..very deep and wet..great protection. I've got it on (top) of all mine.


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 Post subject: Re: 360/12v64 Very Hazy Finish - What to do?
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:42 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:00 pm
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Location: SF CA
Quote:

I'm not sure that buffing would take care of the problem because I fear that something has "softened" the finish to the point that it cannot be buffed. In fact it appears that the previous owner of this guitar has attempted repeatedly to polish it to no avail.

I have actually used both ScratchX and Zymol (as well as a few other polishes and waxes). I have had very mixed results with ScratchX on Ric, Fender, and Gibson finishes. I found it very difficult to work with on my 360 JG. It seems to turn to "epoxy" within about 10 seconds and is virually impossible to remove or buff off - even when working only 2-3 square inches at a time. I found that it actually creates more swirls and splotchy areas than it removes (even using 100% cotton diapers). I had the same problem on my 660/12 too. Zymol, on the other hand, is awesome for guitar finishes. Great product - it produces great results. I used to use alot of 3M products on automobile finishes (including the Perfect-It line). I have had the same problems with them turning to "glue" and being difficult to remove.



Well, there are more than a few people on this and other Rick Forums, who have had nothing but superb results with these two compounds (Scratch-X and Zymol), and every Rick that I refinish using factory methods and materials, gets this treatment before I ship it back to the customer. This is AFTER I've buffed the conversion varnish to a glasslike finish, using a big stand buffer with 12" muslin buffs and Menzerna compound, as the factory does.

Frankly, it sounds like your 360 (a) has had something done to the factory finish (cleaned with lacquer thinner or urethane reducer, possibly), or (b) is a non-factory refinish job with a clearcoat that as not weathered well (an enamel clearcoat comes to mind). The results you are getting on your 660/12, however, indicate to me that there's possibly something wrong with the way you are applying it.

I have a feeling that you already know this, judging from your experience with automotive finishes, but Scratch-X needs to be used like a compound, rubbing it continuously until it has entirely migrated from the surface and back into the cloth and the finish is shiny. A dime-sized drop on a cotton cloth will be enough to buff out a 2" X 2" area. It's not like one of those glazes which are applied, allowed to dry, and then buffed off.

RE: your experiences with Scratch-X on Fender and Gibson finishes. A lot of Fenders are finished in polyester lacquer. NOTHING short of mechanical buffing will work on this type of finish. This is also true of some foreign-made Gibsons. Asia uses a lot of polyester lacquer; it is an offshoot of their experience with this type of finish on pianos over the last four decades. MIM Fenders use it, too.

I've been using Scratch-X since it first came out on all sorts of finishes, and have NEVER experienced the problem you're having with it; it almost sounds like you should contact Meguiar's and pick their brain about this.

_________________
Rickenbackers: I love to play them. I enjoy the challenge of working on them. I love the way they sound.


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 Post subject: Re: 360/12v64 Very Hazy Finish - What to do?
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:44 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:29 am
Posts: 83
Location: yuba city ca.
sounds like it was probably a refinsh.i know that some of the cheaper automotive clears are sprayed and force dried and buffed before they can cure on there own they will dye back(haze up or dull out if you will) if so no amount of just rubbing will help(you could try color sanding it and then buffing but doesnt always work though) Hope this helps alittle(but if Dale or Paul have any other suggestions id listen to them, they both know there stuff!!!!!!) i have no knowledge about CV just automotive refinishes(mainly ppg and omni)


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