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 Post subject: Re: Refinising
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:02 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:00 pm
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Location: Sarasota, FL
I am a Luthier. I build mostly acoustics but have built my share of other instruments such as dulcimers, ukuleles, mandolins, and of course electric guitars. I PREFER NITRO for electric guitars and basses. Not because I am ignorant and paint driveways for a living, but because it is agood finish. Most people can't tell nitro from poly from CV. I like nitro because I can fix a nitro-finish easily. Anything I have tried that catylizes is not repairable. At least not to my standards. Why did Gibson, Fender, and the rest move away from Nitro?...Because it'slow to dry. TIME is money folks, especially when you need to get all those assembly line guitars out to the stores. Why do the big companies and the Japanese {offensive term changed by moderator} and Koreans and rest use POLY?...because it drys fast and is very hard, relatively cheap, doesn't require any real talent to apply...therefore they get a lot more product to market and for the most part have a lot less warrantee issues (a big money soak in this industry). They also can't repair these guitars if they get scratched. Usual protocal is to completely refinish the instrument ( which might cost more than the instrument!)So instead of knocking all the Luthiers ( a term which every guy with a korg tuner and a screw driver calls himself these days)let's think about why many Luthiers like Nitro ( more than waterbornes, KTM9, and the like) . Because it works for the customer...they don't have to charge an arm and leg (although I charge more than $550 to completely re-paint a guitar...but that is so no matter what the medium). Often just the neck needs to be and can be sprayed. The neck comes out great...feels like new...and looks new. A cig burn or scratch can be made to "dis-apear". Many spot fixes for relatively low prices are often the norm for small shops. Personally, all my acoustics are French Polished with Shellac. It is acoustically the best finish...all others, including Nitro add a "Shell" around the body and it does affect many aspects of the guitar( volume, tone, resonance, etc.). This of course is less noticable on electrics ( at least in comparison to acoustics). Nitro is volitile yes, But I seriously doubt that most readers on this forum are going to spray more than one or two guitars themselves. Protective equipment, and proper training is a must. But this is true for power tools we all use...the table/circular saw, band saw, jointer, planner, grinder and others come to mind. Should we not buy and use them...are they "too old". If you need to refinish your guitar...guess what?...no matter what finish you use...it's not the factory original. If it bother's you that much...send it to the factory or seek out someone who claims to do work as well as the factory( oh boy!)so you will have a refinished guitar with factory like finish on it...it still won't be original.


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 Post subject: Re: Refinising
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:13 am 
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Location: Santa Ana, CA
The reason most factories have moved away from nitro is the simple fact that it's illegal for volume production in most states. Furthermore, the nitro that is offered for sale today is not the material of the past, as the VOC is now required to be much lower.

Nitro also has the nasty tendency to take on moisture. The effetcs can range from having a milky tinge to other checking or cracking effects as heat or freezing works on the moisture.

Poly is indeed difficult to repair but conversion varnish is just as easy as nitro to repair- IF you know the techniques- and most people, including luthiers don't. It's simply a matter of having the experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Refinising
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:42 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:00 pm
Posts: 1416
Location: SF CA
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Why did Gibson, Fender, and the rest move away from Nitro?...Because it'slow to dry. TIME is money folks, especially when you need to get all those assembly line guitars out to the stores.

Only partially true. Durability is an issue. Nitro is old-fashioned and nowhere near as durable as a catalyzing finish.

Quote:
Why do the big companies and the Japanese {offensive term changed by moderator} and Koreans and rest use POLY?...because it drys fast and is very hard, relatively cheap, doesn't require any real talent to apply...


It has been my experience that nothing is as easy to apply as nitro. It takes a troglodyte to screw up a nitro finish. Catalyzing finishes take a good deal more equipment, chemistry, and technique to get down correctly. Conversion varnish is one trick mutha...Rickenbacker does not use "poly"--by which I assume you mean poly ESTER. They use polyURETHANE, which is a whole 'nuther matter entirely. I my experience, nothing beats urethane CV. I've been refinishing guitars since about '76 or '77, and using CV since the early '90s. It's tops. It takes some care and chemistry, safety equipment and a nice learning curve to do, but it yields a flawless finish when done properly, and as JH has indicated, can be spot-touched to make a repair absolutely invisible.

Quote:
So instead of knocking all the Luthiers ( a term which every guy with a korg tuner and a screw driver calls himself these days)


...now who's knocking luthiers?

Quote:
let's think about why many Luthiers like Nitro ( more than waterbornes, KTM9, and the like) . Because it works for the customer...they don't have to charge an arm and leg (although I charge more than $550 to completely re-paint a guitar...but that is so no matter what the medium). Often just the neck needs to be and can be sprayed. The neck comes out great...feels like new...and looks new. A cig burn or scratch can be made to "dis-apear". Many spot fixes for relatively low prices are often the norm for small shops.


I and Dale charge approximately the same range for a much more difficult and time-consuming, but in the end original factory type, finish on a Rickenbacker. It's no more an arm and a leg than your own $550.00, and the customer gets a whole lot more for his money in terms of durability.

Touching up a solid is a snap, no matter which type of finish you are doing. Touching up a burst is difficult, again, no matter which type of finish you are applying.

Quote:
If you need to refinish your guitar...guess what?...no matter what finish you use...it's not the factory original. If it bother's you that much...send it to the factory or seek out someone who claims to do work as well as the factory( oh boy!)so you will have a refinished guitar with factory like finish on it...it still won't be original.


Originality among those who value it, will of course cause them to NOT want a refinish job. Those who do want a durable, factory-quality finish on a Rickenbacker, know where to send their guitars for beautiful work and personal service. And you can bet that Dale or I will not use nitro when CV is requested by customers and the only proper finish for a Rickenbacker instrument.

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Rickenbackers: I love to play them. I enjoy the challenge of working on them. I love the way they sound.


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 Post subject: Re: Refinising
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:49 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:26 am
Posts: 23
Location: New Jersey
Refinishing? Does that mean that somebody can actually professionally put a different color on your guitar? Sorry if I sound like an idiot, but I don't know much about that kind of stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Refinising
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:16 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:00 pm
Posts: 1527
Location: S.W. Michigan
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Refinishing? Does that mean that somebody can actually professionally put a different color on your guitar? Sorry if I sound like an idiot, but I don't know much about that kind of stuff.


Look at the threads in this forum Dale (Dale_Fortune) and Paul (jingle_jangle) have posted about the refinishing they have done. It will bring a tear to your eye....


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 Post subject: Re: Refinising
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:00 pm
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Location: Aloha, OR
http://photobucket.com/albums/b53/DaleF ... ass017.jpg
Autumglo restoration refinish


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 Post subject: Re: Refinising
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:56 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:00 pm
Posts: 1527
Location: S.W. Michigan
Quote:
http://photobucket.com/albums/b53/DaleFortune/Kens4001Bass017.jpg
Autumglo restoration refinish


sniff, sniff - Awww that's just beautiful!


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 Post subject: Re: Refinising
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:51 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:00 pm
Posts: 1416
Location: SF CA
Here are a few of mine:

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/ ... gle/h4.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/ ... gle/h8.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/ ... le/am3.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/ ... etail5.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/ ... etail3.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/ ... luback.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/ ... 84copy.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/ ... C00011.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/ ... lflash.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/ ... etail2.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/ ... C00015.jpg

As far as I'm concerned, it's the most fun I've ever had with my pants on!

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Rickenbackers: I love to play them. I enjoy the challenge of working on them. I love the way they sound.


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 Post subject: Re: Refinising
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:56 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:00 pm
Posts: 1527
Location: S.W. Michigan
Quote:
As far as I'm concerned, it's the most fun I've ever had with my pants on!


ROFLMAO!!!

For me, checkered binding is what wet dreams are made of!! Remember, I'm very happily married....


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 Post subject: Re: Refinising
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:43 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:00 pm
Posts: 833
Location: Rickenhausen, Switzerland
I don´t want to start a new thread for my tiny question, hope you don´t bother.
What´s the physical process of aging a "glo-colored" instrument? In a earlier post there was a makeover of an aged "fireglo" to "purpleburst". The fireglo almost looked like autumglo!
Is the light responsible for changing the teint of a finish or something else? For example, if I buy a fireglo today and don´t open the case for 30 years, is there any change in apperance? What else makes the change?

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